Reader Mo Green -- who, rumor has it, made his bones when you were going out with cheerleaders -- makes a good, and often overlooked point in the wake of the Dice-K story:
It may be time to re-examine Theo's free spending ways. 5 years, 55 mil for J.D. Drew, 4 years 36 million for Lugo, 50 mil just for the privilege of talking to DiceK, another 50 mil over 6 years to keep him. There's almost 200 mil circling the drain instead of the bases.
No the Red Sox don't spend as much as the Yankees do, but they do spend a lot. And when it comes to financial advantages, it's not always about how big your payroll is. Being able to absorb bad contracts without taking a competitive hit is critical too, and the Sox have certainly been able to do that. We so often hear people call Theo a genius while saying that Brian Cashman simply knows how to write checks. I think it's far safer to say that each of them are pretty good at the others' alleged forte.
(oh, and nice CTB reference there, Mo!)
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This is a stupid argument. As with every sport, all you have to ask is did it help them win a championship? Well, guess what. The Red Sox have won 2 World Series in 5 years. The Yankees are in a drought, well a drought for the Yankees. Enough said.
Who said they weren't successful? I'm simply pointing out that that success has come despite the fact that they've had just as many bad contracts as a lot of other teams, and that unlike almost every other team, they've been able to withstand the bad contracts without turning into a bad ballclub.
The reasons for that are many, but one of them is certainly the fact that the Sox have a lot of money funneling through Fenway Sports Group and other related business venutres that help cushion the mistakes.
Your also implying though that the Sox have flat out wasted this money and I am saying thats a stupid argument. JD Drew had a great set of playoffs especially against the Indians. Dice K had a great year in 2007 when they won. Lugo, ok, not sure i can argue him but he did help, barely, but still helped. But the point is simple. They won, the Yankees didn't. Did the huge contracts of Abreu, Jeter, Arod, Pettite, Clemens, Mussina, or any others help them win a championship since what, 1996. No, so you can't make this argument. They spend, or in your words waste, far less and still win right now. The postseason is all that matters. And those players did their parts to get the Sox there, and they won 2 our of 5. Can you really say a team made mistakes in spending when it wins the World Series? Only the media does that, as a pointless attack. Ask the fans, no complaints there the years they won, no doubt about that.
"Can you really say a team made mistakes in spending when it wins the World Series?"
Sure you can. A team can do both simultaneously. Winning a WS doesn't mean every decision leading to that victory was the right one.
I disagree. I don't think you can argue that an outcome would have been exactly the same with or without a personel decision. Would the Red Sox have won the world series with Nomar Garciappara in 2003 instead of trading him? Would the Sox have won in 2007 without calling up and using Elsbury? Would they have gone to game 7 last year with Manny still on the roster? Every single personel decision affects the outcome, no matter what.
Yes, that magical Red Sox World Series title of 2003...
Hey hey - I'll let Hyman Roth do the talking for me: "This was a great man, a man of vision and guts."
NV.. you guys are failing hardcore. Keep this @!$%# off the columnists box.
Other than the fact that it critcizes a team you apparently like, tell me oh wise one, what is "@!$%#" about it. Simply calling something "@!$%#" isn't an argument.
Actually, I wasn't referring to a specific team, nor was I intending to make a derogatory reference to you personally. I was referring to the fact that since you are an employee of NBC, your articles should not be making it into the Columnist box on the front page of Newsvine, as that section is for Newsvine original content. This is a known issue, and Mike D. was supposed to have it fixed.
Ah. Apologies. I'm aware of the issue. And FWIW, I think it's going to be resolved very soon.
BAj - your anger at a NewsVine error is no justification for being so uncouth on the comment board. If anyone owes an apology here it's definitely you.
In general you seem to try and elevate the level of dialogue, but you have done the opposite here.
Sure it is. I've been around NV a lot longer than you, and this issue is and has been an annoyance. There are some great original writers who are missing a chance to be seen because development is taking their sweet time to rectify this problem. This was supposed to be fixed several months ago.
If you would ask any GM if he would be willing to spend 100 Million if it would be a key part of getting their them to the World series one year, and one out from getting it to a second World Series every GM would jump on that. In many respects Dice-K has been a disappointment. But in his first two years he won 32 games and was an important part of one WS victory and almost getting there a second time. Any analysis of Dice-K that does not take this into account is a waste of time. Did the Sox spend too much on Dice-K? Yes. But was he worth having on the team? Absolutely.
As for Drew...again they probably spent too much. But Drew carried the Red Sox on his always sore back for large stretches of last season. And in '07 he came up huge in the post season. Without Drew the Red Sox do not beat the Indians, and go on to win the WS.
At the end of the day there can only be one measure of whether a free agent signing was worth the price. Did they win the WS? Did the free agent contribute significantly to that victory? For Dice-K and Drew the answer is an emphatic yes.
Lugo on the other hand was a mess.
Don't forget about Edgar Renteria, 4 years and 40 million for one terrible season, then the Sox sent him to Atlanta along with $11 million cash for prospect-turned-suspect Andy Marte.
Saying that it was all worth it because they won 2 WS is a de facto argument that fails to address the individual merits of each signing, along with the opportunity costs of having the lineup filled with expensive detritus and the need to send piles of cash along with players in trades to clean up after bad deals.
The simple goal of any team is to win the World Series. As a fan that is the ultimate validation.
If you are going to messure the success or failure of a free agent it has to be against that standard. Anything less misses the point.
No doubt that both Lugo and Renteria were horrible signings. My arguement is that Drew and Dice-K aren't because the contributed to significantly to the ultimate goal of a baseball team.
Exactly, carries onto my point from above, stupid argument if the team wins. And the Sox have won, 2 out of 5, 5 straight playoff appearances, and a near 3rd world series appearance last year. Trust me, no Sox fans are whining as much as the media about JD Drew and Dice Ks contract. Lugo has been takin care of as well.
I would hardly say JD Drew's contract is down the drain, and its way, way too early to write off Daisuke's.
The article has nothing to do with whether or not the Red Sox or Yankees are successful. The point is to ask the questions why Epstein is considered a genius while Cashman is perceived as just buying success. If the Yankees win the WS this year, but sign me to a 10 year $300 million, that doesn't make it a good decision.
I believe the point of the article is that both Cashman and Epstein have a lot of money to throw around and a lot of cushion for their mistakes.
And by the way, Cashman has 1 more WS and 3 more WS appearances, so far. I'm a fan of neither but some Red Sox posters seem to be engaging in revisionist history here.
Since the Sox and Yankees went to unlimited free spending in around 2000, the Sox have had the results. Epstein has made better decisions and it shows. The article is just stirring up a topic thats pointless. Pick on my team, the Nats and their GM. Continue with the Mets and their blowup of a front office. How bout Seattle, and their wonderful decisions. Pick on teams that spend a lot as well, and don't make the playoffs. The Sox and Yankees, neither team i care about, are playoff contenders year in and year out. Been 20 years plus since neither of them were in the playoffs.
The examples given of wasted money are in several cases, highly questionable. The only clear examples are the black holes at SS: Lugo and Rent-a-Wreck. Is Drew in a horrific slump and overpriced by any measure? Of course. But he plays a fine RF, gets on base, and figures to start hitting to his mediocre norms soon enough. In short, he is an over-paid cog in a contender's lineup, but an important cog nonetheless. He's not worthless which Mr. Green implied.
Same thing for Dice-K though I find him less likely to be valuable over the duration of his contract, so its possible that indeed he will be regarded as a terrible waste of money. But to date he helped win a World Series in his very first season in the majors, and won a lot of games with a very low ERA in his second season. His third season is a total loss but that hardly wipes away the value he gave in his first two seasons.
Its funny how Sox fans make themselves sound like the Washington Nationals when it comes to payroll. And how defensive they get when anyone dares to question Lord Theo.
The Yankees won a World Series in 1998. Hideki Irabu was on that team. We won the ring, but signing Irabu was idiotic. You can put the two in a sentence, and it doesn't invalidate said sentence.
In 2007, Theo traded for Eric Gagne. He was a flop. The Sox won the title, but the fact remaines Gagne was a flop. Just because you win a title doesn't make everyone on your team a good player. And it surely doesn't give the GM free reign to screw up.
Just wait till the Sox pay either Victor Martinez or Joe Mauer a boatload of money. It'll be treated as if the Red Sox donated the money to Feed The Children.
"Just because you win a title doesn't make everyone on your team a good player. And it surely doesn't give the GM free reign to screw up."
Yes, exactly this. I'm a huge Red Sox fan, but you'd have to be a completely irrational zealot to say that Epstein hasn't made any bad personnel decisions, or that any personnel decision that happens in a title year is automatically awesome.
When I saw there were over 20 comments I knew immediately what those comments would be. man how I wish I was wrong. Relax sox fans, craig (and Mo) wasn't bashing your team. all he commented on was that the Sox have made personnel mistakes that they have been able to cover because of their financial cushion. Cashman and Epstein have had very similar track records yet 1 is deified and 1 is villified. The hard truth that the sox fans refuse to acknolwedge is that the sox are far more similar to the yankees in personnel philosophy than they are to any other MLB team. They are a well run, successful franshise and the envy of most every other team. That envy is not because they have a genius GM. It comes from resources. Paying over slot for draft picks, paying huge money for free agents... If Dice-K is on the Yankees right now, sox fans are blasting it as a terrible signing. Texeira and A-Rod were both coveted by the Sox. Everyone fawned over the brilliant Baldelli and Smoltz signings this winter. How's that going so far?
I don't think MLB was founded in 2004. I seem to remember the yankees making the playoffs for 13 straight years and if my eyes don't deceive me they may be ahead of the sox as we speak. As a suffering Nat's fan, I ask both of your fan bases to hush up and enjoy what you have.
Hey now, the Nationals have a longer winning streak right now!!!