Sunday night Mariano Rivera joined Trevor Hoffman as the only members of the 500-save club, so I thought it would be interesting to compare their Hall of Fame careers:
G IP ERA W SV SO9 BB9 HR9 OAVG Hoffman 953 1011 2.76 57 572 9.6 2.5 0.8 .210 Rivera 881 1054 2.30 69 500 8.3 2.1 0.5 .213
Hoffman's strikeout rate is 15 percent higher than Rivera's and ranks as the fourth-best of all time among pitchers with at least 1,000 innings, which is amazing for a guy whose average fastball has clocked in at 85.5 miles per hour since that data started being recorded in 2002. His otherworldly changeup is the reason and likely ranks as one of the most effective pitches in the history of baseball.
Of course, Rivera's cutter should also be on that list of most-effective pitches and probably tops Hoffman's changeup given that it's basically all he's thrown for 15 years. Rivera hasn't missed as many bats as Hoffman, but then again he hasn't needed to. He's handed out 15 percent fewer walks and, most importantly, served up 40 percent fewer homers.
To me the most interesting aspect of the 500-save club is how incredibly different the two members are from each other. Hoffman is a fastball-changeup artist who induces a ton of fly balls while serving up quite a few homers despite playing in pitcher-friendly ballparks. Rivera is a cutter machine who induces a ton of ground balls and has the 10th-lowest homer rate of any pitcher from the last 50 years.
Two completely different approaches, yet similarly extraordinary results. Since the mound was lowered in 1969, the two lowest ERAs in all of baseball belong to Rivera at 2.30 and Hoffman at 2.76. And they're still thriving at the ages of 39 and 41, as both pitchers have converted 18-of-19 save opportunities this season while posting sub-3.00 ERAs.
Hoffman is on track for his 14th 30-save season, while Rivera is looking for his 12th 30-save campaign. Rivera has two 50-save seasons compared to just one from Hoffman, but Hoffman's nine 40-save campaigns beat Rivera's six. And of course Rivera has 34 career postseason saves (and a 0.77 ERA in 117 playoff innings) compared to just four from Hoffman.
They each look capable of piling up saves well beyond this season, but once they do decide to retire it'd be interesting if they both call it quits at the same time. That way the Hall of Fame induction could feature both "Enter Sandman" and "Hells Bells" as debates raged on about who should get the call to close out the ceremony.
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Hoffman would be notching his 600th save this season had he not missed almost all of 2003 recovering from surgery. He only played in 9 non-save situation games in September that year.
My concern as a Hoffman fan is that, if they both retire in the same season, voters will pick one or the other on their ballots. Under that scenario, I believe many would deservedly cast votes for Rivera, leaving Hoffman to wait another year. Rivera's career is remarkable and he is possibly the most dominant postseason pitcher in baseball history. Do you see this happening? I think both are first-ballot HOFers.
WooHoo, I love Rivera and the Yankees.
I also agree that they are BOTH worthy to become Hall Of Famers!!!!
How many big game,Playoff or World Series saves does Hoffman have? Case closed.......................
how many world series has hoffman blown...
Er, case re-opened. (A) A closer can't get into "big save" situations by himself. It's not Hoffman's fault that Rivera plays for a team with deep pockets, and has had a lot more high-visibility opportunities. (B) Even then, judging a guy's career of nearly 1000 games by what he did in 20 or 30 games doesn't make a whole lot of sense...
Is that the best you can do?
Since 2004... Rivera has blown 3 of his last 7 playoff save opportunities. Add in the 2001 World Series... Yikes!
What's his ERA, Saves, Blown Saves and Strikeouts and Innings Pitched during that timeframe? Thats what I thought.
Greatest ever. End of story.
stoops, quit yer worrying, both are first ballot HOFs.
jmotts, you like kicking padre fan in the stomach?
World Series titles: Rivera 4, Hoffman 0. End of story.
World Series titles: Yankees 4, Padres 0.
Baseball isn't a solo sport, man...
World Series title Player is SOLELY responsible for BLOWING: Rivera 1 Hoffman 0
Nope. The Yankees had the worst offense of any team in World Series history to force a game 7. It was the team's fault moreso than Rivera's.
Wrong again.
The point's already been made, but again...World Series titles for yankees with rivera on the team: 4 World series titles for Rivera: 0. Rivera probably would have had a great career even playing for the Royals during those years, and surely would have made them better, but he would have ZERO titles. Or just switch Hoffman and Rivera during that time. Perhaps Hoffman would have 5 titles to Rivera's 4 for the same teams and same period, while I doubt Rivera would have any had he played for the teams Hoffman played for.
I honestly think that the ball players who played during the era of a HOF candidate's career should be the ones to vote. They don't need stats (which can mislead) to know whether a player was truly great or not, they were on the field with the them.
Wow, Travis. Loved the first paragraph--completely lost me with the second one. Players voting their buddies into the Hall? That's the worst ideas I've heard in a very long time.
Most over-rated position in all of sport. Love Hoffman as a person but both guys have played just about 1000 innings. Not HOF deserving.
Stop with your ridiculousness, they're not starting pitchers, they're closers - the two most dominant closers in history.
Hands down first ballot HOF'ers.
While Rivera has a case, I think Goose Gossage and Dennis Eckersley may have something to say about being ranked behind Hoffman.
Sure, mention Rivera's 2001 WS blown save only after he made his mark in the postseason closing back-to-back-to-back (98-00) world series. His postseason ERA is under 1, let's be serious.
What about Big Trev serving one up to Scotty Brosious, DEAD center, in the 98 WS? Was that a game SD was winning? Hoffman choked in his "high visibility" opportunity. You take advantage of the situations you are put in, and Hoffman's postseason and even all-star game record does anything but stand out. It's easy to compile saves playing in rather meaningless games (only made the postseason 4 times) against primarily weak NL west teams.
The Yankees did not have deep pockets (the juggernaut YES network was not born) when they were winning the hardware. Thats what makes the ton of money they spend now and relative lack of success all the more troubling.
What are you judged by in sports? Winning championships...For the dude to say it doesn't make sense to judge someone by 20 or 30 games when those are the most pressurized in the profession is quite frankly, a joke.
*The Yankees did not have deep pockets (the juggernaut YES network was not born) when they were winning the hardware.
This might be the dumbest thing that I have ever seen posted. The Yankees have always had the deepest pockets in baseball...period. YES network or not. As far as the closer argument; who cares. They are both great and both will make the hall.
Hoffman isn't better than Rivera, period.
The phrase "there are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics" comes to mind in this case. Anyone can selectively tailor stats to fit his particular argument.
Hoffman pitches in the NL, and pitches in an environment that creates far less pressure to deal with. Those are key factors. Also important is that while Hoffman hasn't had the "benefit" of pitching on powerhouse teams, he also hasn't had the burden of pitching on them either -- fewer pressure saves, less stress, lower expectations, friendlier press etc. These are factors.
We know what Rivera has done consistently in high-pressure situations. With Hoffman that's unknown.
As far as stats and numbers go, if you go to Baseball-Reference.com you'll find Rivera ranked above Hoffman by a significant margin in their HOF point system.
Statistics will also tell you that despite pitching in the AL, Rivera has a lower career ERA than Hoffman, and an almost identical WHIP -- compare that to their respective league averages in both categories and get back to me as to who has the more impressive stats. Take a look at how many homeruns the two allow as well -- the margin is impressive (49 vs. 82), and in Rivera's favor... of course.
Hoffman's career save total is irrelevant because he has been closing for 3 more seasons than Rivera.
The one area where Hoffman trumps Rivera is in the blown saves department -- no one rivals Hoffman there. Though that's significant, it doesn't make him better than Rivera at closing, nor does it make him as good as Rivera. Rivera, despite serving as the Yankees' primary closer for 3 fewer years than Hoffman has been a primary closer, has pitched 11 more innings over his career! The Yankees use him more, and they use him for 1+ inning saves more often than any team uses their closer for that purpose. He has earned some of the most difficult saves in baseball, in arguably the most pressure-packed situations... consistently. Add in all of the innings he has pitched in the playoffs, and imagine the wear on his arm compared to the wear on Hoffman's. This is why he has blown more saves: he is used more; he is used for 1+ and in some cases 2 innings more frequently than any reliever in the past decade; he has thrown nearly a season's more innings (if you include the postseason) than Hoffman has despite closing for 3 fewer years.
Rivera is better than Hoffman, period.
And I haven't even gotten to the 8-1 record, .80 ERA, .71 WHIP (), 34 save postseason stats. But now I have. And there they are. Cartoonish. The stuff of legend. Incredible. And Hoffman is a full level below Rivera. And it's really not debatable. In fact, it's less debatable than Montana-Marino.
More about the "big stage":
Rivera in the all star game: 5 innings, 3 hits, 3 saves, no earned runs.
Hoffman in the All Star game: 5.1 innings, 9 hits, 6 earned runs, 0 saves, 1 loss.
I don't think you're actually arguing against anybody. There's no argument to be made that Hoffman is better than Rivera. But this post makes me really want to be able to disagree with you, since you're focusing on everything except the stuff that actually kind of matters.
additionally, we're only a few years removed from Hoffman costing the Padres a playoff spot by blowing teo 9th inning leads in the last 3 games of the season.
I neglected to mention his implosion in '07. 2 straight blown saves to end the year. Another example of him failing to step up in a big game.
Rivera, or Torre rather, made it fashionable to bring him in for 5 and 6 out saves. Check the statistics, or PWRFL TRTH can supply them, of how many of his postseason saves are 1+ innings. In a time of lefty specialists and playing matchups he stands out. Over 20% of his regular season saves are of 1+ inning variety.
Trying to make any comparison is silly. It isn't even close. But I suppose any closer who reaches this 500 saves milestone is subject to comparison, justified or not.
I think the first thing you need to realize when analyzing relievers is that the save is a useless statistic. It's pretty meaningless. Hell, when Jose Mesa can rack up 321 career saves despite an era of 4.36, that tells you something about the value of the save statistic.
Baseball would be a better game if managers would stop worrying about silly save situations and instead pitch their best pitchers in the highest of leverage situations. What's more impressive, pitching against the 7th, 8th and 9th hitters in the 9th inning with a 3 run lead and no one on base or coming in in the 7th against the heart of the order with two on and no out?
That all said, while both Rivera and Hoffman have had remarkable careers, I think Rivera's career has been far more impressive. There's already a pretty big gap in their ERA's, but Rivera posted his while pitching in the AL East, while Hoffman posted his while primarily pitching in the far weaker NL West, and in a cavernous stadium. That's show in their ERA+, which compare their ERAs to league average with 100 being average and the higher the number the better. Rivera's ERA+ is 197, while Hoffman's is just 146.
Rivera was also used more, pitching more innings in less games than Hoffman. Rivera has 10 seasons of 70+ innings, including a season over 100 innings back in 1996, while Hoffman ahs just five seasons of more than 70 innings. Rivera has also been more dominant, as he has 8 seasons with an era under 2.00, while Hoffman has just one.
Rivera is quite possibly the greatest closer in baseball, and certainly the greatest modern closer. Rivera belongs in the Hall of Fame, while Hoffman belongs in the Hall of Really Really Good.
It took baseball writers a while to accept relievers as Hall of Famers, but that the writers have, they've become almost too enamored with them. In the past decade there has only been a single starting pitcher voted in to the Hall of Fame by the writers, Nolan Ryan way back in 1999, while three relievers have made it. Sports writers even go on to have silly debates as to whether promising starting pitchers like Joba Chamberlain, David Price and Phil Hughes should be sent to the bullpen as mythical "8th inning bridges".
While it's great that some of the best relievers in history are finally getting their due, we shouldn't forget the starters either. Hoffman has had a very good career, but it certainly wasn't any more valuable than many of the starters he'd like share a ballot with like Mike Mussina, Curt Schilling, John Smoltz or Pedro Martinez.
Considering that the most important, memorable pitch Trevor Hoffman ever threw was deposited by Scott Brosius over the centerfield wall in Jack Murphy Stadium when the Yankees swept the Padres in the 1998 World Series... I would say this comparison is more an insult than joke.
I don't deny that Hoffman will eventually get into the Hall of Fame. But Rivera isn't only the greatest relief pitcher of all time... he might be the most dominant pitcher of all time.
He's, arguably, the most important single player to the New York Yankees since Babe Ruth.
Nobody's going to be remembering how great Trevor Hoffman is to their grandkids save some SD retirees.
And just to answer: yes, he blew a couple of big ones. The game-winning blooper to Gonzalez in game 7 against the Diamondbacks in 2001 was shocking... but it only added to Mo's legend, as I saw it. I even felt that way at the time. He's delivered in so many big spots... spots the Yankees don't get to without him... that his failures against the Diamondbacks, the Red Sox (and even against Cleveland in that 1997 ALDS) only enhance his legacy.
Rivera is a legend walking.
I should add... he broke Luis Gonzalez's BAT on that bloop hit. He made the pitch he intended and that goddamn cutter splintered the bat it was aimed at. The infield had been playing in after Brosius failed to turn a double play earlier in the inning. I believe Rivera made a throwing error earlier in the inning, so he owns the blown save... but it was an epic event, more so than some might even causally remember.
It took the bottom of the 9th, game 7 with the Yankees' on the brink of winning their 4th consecutive World Series to undo Mariano.
Everyone has some good points to make but a footnote i would like to add about 2001 and the blown save.
911 was fresh on the nations minds and especially New Yorkers (Yankees) and to top it off Mariano had some relatives die right before that series in his swimming pool. I dont know about you but take those traumas out of the mix and maybe the Yankee Juggernaut has its 4th in a row. My pet was in the hospital last night and me and my wife could barely function the last couple of days. Think about it.
It's fun to talk about this, but no self respecting writer is going to leave either one off the very first ballot they cast. Hoffman is still doing a decent job for Milwaukee, but I feel like he'll have to hang 'em up a few years before Mariano will. Even though they are both approaching the end as we speak. But on the off chance they both retire at the same time they will both enter the Hall at the same time. This isn't Lee Smith, Goose Gossage, Bruce Sutter stuff; these two are a cut above those great relievers. Like it or not The Closer (thanks Kyra Sedgwick) is now a bonafide Hall of Fame position...and it should be. I agree with the guy who wrote Mariano is the single most important Yankee since Babe Ruth. No Mariano, no titles across the board...I'll never forget losing that Seattle playoff series because Buck was afraid to use John Wetteland after Randy Velarde beat Randy Johnson in the top of the inning. Black Jack blew the series, but I doubt the Yankees would have survived Cleveland that year anyway. None of this takes away from the stellar career that Trevor Hoffman is having. Not the league, not the low payroll in San Diego, not the lack of playoff success...none of it. It's crazy to compare them anyway and they are both sure fire Hall of Famers. May they keep on racking up the saves so no pretenders can touch their records.
Let's see, Rivera has 4 rings while Hoffman has ZERO! In his only World Series appearance Hoffman got lit up like a Vegas hooker, case closed.
Yeah, I agree. I actually think that Rivera is the greatest pitcher of all time. Imagine this scenario, how much would an Owner of ANY sport pay for a guarantee? A player that will guarantee you 5 home runs in 5 at bats over the course of a season. Or a running back that you're only allowed to have run the ball 5x a season, yet will guarantee 5 touchdowns. How about a player that is only allowed to take 5 shots during the entire year, but will go 5-for-5 from 3-point-land? To a team that has the necessary pieces to win a championship, this player would be the "ultimate weapon" and would make Champions out of losing teams on a relatively consistent basis. Rivera is much more than a 5/5 or even 10/10 player, he is consistency personified. Taken over the course of a career, there is no other pitcher in baseball history that should be taken over Rivera if you need to get 3 outs and your life depends upon it. A case can be made that Rivera is the greatest "weapon" in sports outside of Jordan, Gretsky, Marino & Montana.
Remember also that Rivera was once a starter upon entering the big leagues in 95. If you disregard that year and look at his totals strictly from the bullpen, this is how things would appear to date (July 24, 2009)
GP: 873
IP: 998
ERA: 2.07
W/L: 64-48
SV: 510
K/9: 8.4
BB/9: 1.97
ERA+ : 220
WHIP: 0.980