Adam LaRoche and other Pirates' players are not happy about the Nate McLouth deal:
"There ain't a guy in here who ain't pissed off about it. They might be trying to hide it or whatever, but . . . hey, you get a guy's loved by everybody, not just in this clubhouse but in the community, who does everything you could want a guy to do, a perfect guy to be a leader . . . It's kind of like being with your platoon in a battle, and guys keep dropping around you. You keep hanging on, hanging on, and you've got to figure: How much longer till you sink?"
An anonymous Pirate veteran was critical of the haul the Pirates got in return, saying "You make a deal for a player like that, and you'd better get at least one elite guy in return. Who's the guy in this trade? Who is that player?"
The article notes how Adam LaRoche had declared himself a team leader earlier in the season. It strikes me, however, that if you're going to be a team leader, you have to do things that a team leader does such as ensure that this sort of discontent is not aired in public, both from yourself and from the teammates you purport to lead. That's especially true when the discontent involves specific criticism of the guys that are coming to join your team. Lamenting the loss of a friend and valuable veteran is fine, but this kind of thing isn't helpful to anyone. Not the fans, who don't want to hear one of the team's best players suggest that the team is sinking or giving up, not Gorkys Hernandez, Charlie Morton or Jeff Locke, who have now been told that they suck even before arriving in Pittsburgh, and last but not least, not Andrew McCutchen, who represents the future of the Pirates' organization whether LaRoche and his veteran friends like it or not.
Maybe this was not the best haul Pittsburgh could have gotten for McLouth, but it's not a lay-down trade by any stretch. The difference between the Pirates being good and the Pirates being bad is more than Nate McLouth, and any trade that brings them some needed organizational depth and creates an opportunity for a guy like McCutchen to play has much to recommend it. A team leader would recognize that or, at the very least, keep such criticisms in-house rather than publicly sow this sort of discontent.
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I agree that this was not the smartest thing Adam LaRoche could have said, but I disagree that he cannot be a "team leader" if he dares to dissent from a management decision. Keeping player discontent bottled up somehow will make the players perform better, is that the theory? Sounds iffy. The fact of the matter is that Pittsburgh is one of, if not the worst franchise in MLB, in terms of how badly it's been mismanaged for two decades, and the players and fans have a right to not only be angry, but to voice that anger. LaRoche doesn't owe management anything; he is not a "company man" tasked with covering for their mistakes. If the Pirates wanted to promote Andrew McCutchen (which they shouldn't have...see "Milledge, Lastings"), then they could have benched Nyjer Morgan for him and nobody would have batted an eyelash. Instead, the team clearly went cheap, traded McLouth for three pretty "blah" players, and then tried to spin it as a positive for the organization. I say, good for LaRoche and other players who said what people in Pittsburgh feel. Somali pirates make better decisions.
Why would you bench Morgan in favor of McCutchen? That makes absolutely little sense considering how well Morgan has done so far this year. You don't bench somebody who's playing well.
Also, the fact that you call them "blah" players shows that you know little about who these players actually are. I wonder if you're still calling Morton a "blah" player after his dominant performance on Saturday.
Finally, you don't seem to understand that the Pirates have a new owner, president, general manager, scouting team, and coaching staff. There is little or nothing from the old ownership/management currently in this team. Give the new Pirates team a chance to do their thing before you start criticizing them.
i've been a fan since my first game seeing ralph kiner. i've seen some good teams and some bad teams; but this recent two decade stretch is gut-wretching. the current mgmt is the problem. taxes build them a great venue for baseball, and they treat the organization like a private piggy bank. mgmt is the problem, they are disgraceful!!!!!!
What a joke. Maybe Laroche should worry more about hitting his IQ than what managment is doing. Both are way below average.
I would be pissed off too the pirates got fleeced. This is especially terrible after cutting loose Jason Bay last year.
Anyone and everyone should be talking badly about the Pirates management! I mean come on for the past 20 years they have traded away any decent talent they managed to groom in thier system. They should be ashamed. It amazes me that any fans at all show up for the games. The Pirates front office obviously has no intent or desire to win baseball games, thier trade record shows it. How the auther of this article can stick up for them in any way is insane. That franchise is an embarressment!!!!
If this was the first time this had happened, perhaps I could understand your point. But it's not. Every year at about this time, the Pirates do this. This year, McLouth. Last year, Bay to the Sox, Nady and Marte to the Yankess. IN 2006 it was Craig Wilson, Kip Wells, and Oliver Perez. Yeah, I know that this is an uneven bunch of players, but in every case, it ripped the heart out of the current team, and rarely did the Bucs get any players who made any impact--and the one that did--Nady in '06--got traded away the next year.
It's a horrible, horrible, anguish-inducing feeling, watching the Pirates consistantly trade a promising present for an uncertain future.
The Pirates have become the Filene's basement of baseball, and it sucks.
The thing is, though, that the present isn't very promising. McLouth is not a good enough defender to be an everyday center fielder on a playoff-caliber team, and his bat isn't so potent that he'd be a star in an outfield corner. The return may have been disappointing, but it's always said that teams trade contracts, not players. In exchange for 3 years of McLouth, you got 18 (17?) combined years of upside and club control.
The fact that nobody familiar with the players involved is calling this a horrible trade should tell you something. I think that the Huntington regime was just dealt an atrocious hand when it took over and has a lot of rebuilding to do until Pittsburgh is competitive again. You've got below-average production at nearly position and a rotation without anything resembling an ace. You may not like parting with your best players, but it's got to happen.
In this particular instance, with this particular trade, you're right, but you're missing the larger issue, which is: The depressing regularity with which this organization does this. In the offseason, trades are made that might bolster the current team, but then in the middle of the season they once dismantle the team. Every year! Every year they do this. The only surprise to this trade was that it happened in early June as opposed to late July.
I don't see anything they did in this off-season or last that should have given anybody a reasonable expectation of competitiveness. Huntington has only been in charge since September of 2007. He took over an organization that was a mess in nearly every conceivable way. Give him some time, because that's what it's going to take.
I applaud them for speaking out. As a Pirate "fan" for the last 2 decades I'm appalled at the mis-management of this organization. Every time we make a trade, we hear the same thing from the ownership... "we're building the team through the acquisition of prospects". Problem is that everyone time ONE of our prospects develops into a all-star caliber player, we trade them away for 4 guys who won't sniff the big leagues and one decent player. Repeat. I don't think he was necessarily degrading the players that they're getting, I think he meant that it was frustrating to them to not receive one person who can jump into the starting line-up immediately.
While Adam may have shown poor judgement aloud, at least he is venting and showing some emotion. That is more than can be said for ownership and management who continually sabotage the team after yearly delivering platitudes about teamwork and hope. Pride and Passion...? Yeah, right. The players show it daily and do the very best they can with a small payroll and then management (several managements, in fact) go about tearing apart the core team and profess it to be under the guise of "building." PLEASE! We have been "building" for years and all the good cornerstones get jettisoned each year about this time. Hey, Nutting, Huntington, Coonelly and Russell you ought to be ashamed of the way you treat this historic franchise. Keep ripping it apart boys, and eventually you'll have NO fans left. Pittsburghers are not stupid...they may be too tolerant, in fact, but your tricks will catch up with you sooner or later. As a life-long Bucco fan I am truly embarrassed. Let's hear you ROAR, Adam, because soon you too will be gone.
Quit your bellyachin and suck it up! This is about $$$$. McLouth got plenty of it this year and what happens if the Atlanta picks turn out to be good ball players? What do you say then? I do say however that it would have made one hell of a outfield, 3M's, McClouth, Morgan and MacCutchen and demote Moss.
Barnes -- I suspect that Adam roared in part because he knows he'll be gone soon too.
Everyone else: I sympathize with how hard it has been to be a Pirates fan for so long, but it's one thing to be angry, and it's another to rip three young players who, right or wrong, are going to be a part of this team for a good while. There's a fine line between being outspoken and being a morale-killer, and I think LaRoche and the anonymous Pirate vet who ripped Hernandez, Morton, and Locke crossed it.
Overall I'm with Kersey. Nate McLouth is a good player and given how bad the Braves' outfield is they needed him, but on this Pirate team with its organizational problems, he's not worth several players, each of which have a decent chance to be good themselves.
What exactly is the value in preserving a team that won 67 games last year? McLouth is a good player, but not a great player, and you can't consistently win with one good player and a bunch of other guys who are below-average to slightly above-average. Perhaps the greatest commodity in baseball right now is young, team-controlled starting pitchers, and the Pirates just got two of them plus a touted outfield prospect, while also giving McCutchen an opportunity to play every day. McLouth will probably have a greater impact through 2011 than the guys he was traded for, but their value will extend far beyond the end of McLouth's current contract.
Neal Huntington and Frank Coonelly have made it clear that their goal is to build a consistent contender out of this heretofore awful franchise. That means you have to trade some good players to build up your farm system, even if it pisses off your fans who don't understand the process. Does anyone really miss Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte? Jason Bay netted four decent-to-good players, including a starting third baseman who is playing quite well. These are the choices you have to make when trying to rebuild a team. They're not always easy or popular, but they're necessary.
Amen!
The management has been building for the future for almost 2 decades. What they have managed to do ius destroy team moral. Nate the Great, although somewhat new to the team, was a cornerstone. I wish Nate, as well as the new Buck teammates luck, but I do think this was a poorly timed trade and the slim chance we had of getting back to .500 this year is gone for good.
It hasn't been the same management. Huntington hasn't been around for all that long and has done substantially better than his predecessors (hard to do worse, I know). Don't make the mistake of thinking the Pirates are going to win anytime soon. Building for the future is the right thing to do; fielding 75-win teams every year is not.
Paul, thanks for posting your comments here. It's a relief to see that there's at least one Pirates fan who's not bone-headed.
The problem goes beyond this one deal, but to every deal. We keep trading away the better-to-best players supposedly for the future. But that future never comes because we trade the players as soon as they get good. It's a vicious circle and a proven strategic failure. Add to that the dumb stunt moves like the Indian pitchers, and you've got yourself a losing franchise.
I'm also suspicious that this deal happened while the fans are distracted with the Pens.
Perhaps after the Stanley Cup, the city and the fans can devote themselves to demanding some changes. Especially if we win the cup. How will management justify their actions when the other teams have produced champions in less time?
Agreed- the city has an NFL champ and hopefully an NHL champ soon- the people of Pitt should expect more from their baseball team.
Rebuilding according to the Pirates seems to be developing players until they're valuable trade chips, then swapping them out for other players to develop and trade a couple years down the line. They apparently skip the step of the rebuilding process where you field a quality team every once in a while.
Even the Marlins manage that, and they're the most notorious franchise in baseball for kicking their fans in the groin and trading away all their best players. At least they only do that after they field a successful team.
I am an old timer who saw Clemente throw out a runner at home from right field, on the fly, in Forbes Field. He and dave parker had been warmly greeted by fans with a shower of 9V batteries. If you want a good product, you have to support it.
The Pirates did ante up for some big contracts this year, including one for a guy named la Roche.
They don't have enough fan support to keep doing that; the stands are empty.
The complainers are going to hockey games, or saving money for Steelers tickets.
Stop yapping and support the team by going to games, if you want to see things improve.
They still have a good shot at a winning season.
I think you are totally off base here. Isn't he BEING a leader by calling it like it is. That's what leaders do they say the things all his teammates are thinking but unwilling to say. It's good to see a team leader on a pathetic team show some passion and fire for his friends and teammates and call out this sad franchise. Trade him to the Cardinals I'm sure his fire and passion would be appreciated by Albert & Co.
No, that's what a player leader or a union shop steward does. When LaRoche went to his teammates this spring and made his claim to be a team leader (as is described in the article) I'm sure he didn't intend to be agitator in chief. He intended to be the guy that lifts others when they're down, motivates, and takes responsibility. In this instance he's kicking his teammates (the new arrivals and McCutchen), demotivating both his teammates and the fans, and doing nothing to take responsibility. The ship is sinking? Thanks, leader.
Do the Pirate owners even want to be in Major League Baseball? Xavier Nady, Jason Bay, Nate McClouth. Tell me an outfield better than that?
Hmm... You really want that question answered? An outfield better than one made up of three bad defenders, of whom one (Nady) is a borderline platoon hitter? I assume you're asking this because of the numbers they put up in the first half of last year, but it's silly to evaluate players (in the case of Nady and McLouth) on career years.
Anyway, here goes: Jones/Markakis/Reimold, Drew/Ellsbury/Bay (I'm assuming this counts, but you can disqualify it if not), Fukudome/Soriano/Bradley, or Ramirez/Kemp/Ethier would be a good start. I'd take any of those trios over the one you mentioned.
To all the defenders of the Pirates organization....ENOUGH!!! I have officially given up on them and when I say them I mean the idiots who own the team. In recent years we have seen too many trades yielding players who, if they do produce well, only get traded away for more candidates. We had an average team that did not carry a huge payroll. Pardon the fans for getting attached to a good player, a nice player who has yet to let us down. I consider myself fortunate to be able to remember the great teams of the 70's and also to have seen actual playoff games played in Pittsburgh in the early 90's. I have blamed Littlefield in the past, the league itself for its insane contracts but I have no one left to blame. I cannot allow myself to watch a "farm team" in progress. The veterans who are good are getting tired of this too. The Pirates make money, actually a lot of money when you compare what is payed out vs. what comes in. They lost my respect and there is nothing more I can offer, not even a bit of fan support. Sell the team and put the players and the fans out of their misery already!!!
they don't don't they are the talent pool for the highest bidder or in this case the Braves fleeced them something good.
I have lived here in Pittsburgh now for 5 years and I have learned that they don't want to win. They are a minor league team that grooms players to trade off and make other teams good. As a buisness minded owner, he is a genious. He built a beautiful stadium which is paid for from tax dollars, gets players into his organization who are average at best or ageing/washed up veterans and just when these players start to blossom....TRADE THEM! The fans keep going to the "beautiful ballpark" to watch a bunch of goons run around and he makes millions without having to spend any money. How can you blame the guy?
Every year it is the same old thing. Trade away one of the very few great players on the team for another year of rebuilding. I am a Steeler and Penguin fan, but after watching what management does with the Pirates, all I do now is look at the standings in the paper and shake my head. Management for the last 10 years has done nothing to encourage fans. They treat the Pirates like a farm club, and as soon as a player develops and could cost them some money, off he goes to a real team..
last year Nady, and Jay.........
Craig, r u a dum dum, 16 straight losing seasons are u kiddin me........
Pirates take Yankees/Mets money from Luxury and Salary Cap Tax
and instead of putting it in the team payroll, the OWNER FILLS HIS POCKET.
CALL THEM OUT.... GOOD JOB
Why is it that when someone tells the truth, people starting yelling that it needs to be kept quiet? Either that or they lose their job. The truth is supposed to set you free, but it seems like it ties people in knots. That is why no body really trusts the media any more, because we know we usually don't get the truth. What we get more often than not is a whitewahsed version of their interpretation of the story. Same with government, you can't trust what any body tells you, because most of the time it is a lie.
Im glad Laroche said this. this is a reoccurring trend for the pirates organization that has gotten them nowhere, and someone should stand up and say "It's getting a little old". their past two trades have just beefed up the Double A Altoona team at the cost of their major league team. Its a free country, laroche should be allowed to say what needed to be said, especially considering everyone in the dugout feels the exact same way.
and how can you say he fails at being a team leader. everyone in the dugout is disappointed about what is happening with the big wigs in the office - and you know who the voice of the dugout should be? A leader! and laroche gladly expressed the mood of his team. so dont try to cut him down.
And there's nothing wrong with being disappointed. But does a leader really act like a public megaphone for that, or does he meet with the guys, tell them that it's cool to be angry, but then try to get them to make lemonade out of the lemons they've been handed? LaRoche's comments are the equivalent of the captain of a ship saying "well, this is hopeless, looks like we're all dead now; god I HATE those stupid mapmakers!" after running into an uncharted shoal.